Australia
A podcast for all things Schema Therapy, theory, skills, research and more!
In this episode we speak with Professor Arnoud Arntz, a founding developer and researcher of the Schema Therapy Model. We discuss new developments and proposed changes to the schema model- a must watch!
Page 1 of 25
What’s the Schemata Episode Recorded 23/04/2025 – Schema
Therapy in Chinese and other Collectivist Cultures:
Implications for Clinical Practice & Training in the Model
Formatted Transcript: Beatrice Ng-Kessler & Robert Brockman
Robert Brockman: Hi.
Robert Brockman: All right. Welcome everyone to What's the Schemata? And today I've got
a really special guest with us. I'm speaking with Beatrice Ng-Kessler, who is a private
practitioner working out of London, England, and also a Hong Kong expatriate who has
recently started the Chinese Schema Therapy Academy in Hong Kong. So welcome, Beatrice.
Robert Brockman: How you doing?
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I'm well, thanks so much. I'm good. I'm good, nervous, speaking in
English. Robert Brockman: A bit nervous. I know you're a bit of a listener actually talking
backstage with you. I know that you listen to the pod sometimes. So what's that like coming
on the pod when you're also a listener?
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, I enjoy that a lot. Yeah. And learn a lot from it, you know, from
different guest speakers. I really appreciate that. I even think about, you know. Is that
something cool to do it in my mother tongue? You know, I do really think about that.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: But yeah, I found, you know there's so much effort that you have to put
in so to do. Robert Brockman: Podcast.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, lots.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Pranks. Robert Brockman: Yeah, you could do. What's the Schemata
Chinese language Robert Brockman: like this? All right. Well, you know, you and I work a
little bit together and doing things. Robert Brockman: you know, with disseminating schema
therapy in Hong Kong. And we've been working closely together now for a little while on
those things, and Robert Brockman: you know. So I'm really excited to have you here today
because we've been sharing ideas a little bit here and there, and really really excited to have
you on board and really interrogate some issues around applying schema therapy within a
Chinese cultural context, and to some degree sort of extrapolating that out to working more
generally with Asian patients and those with an Asian cultural background which many of
us do, of course. Robert Brockman: So my, I guess I guess I wanted to start this Robert
Brockman: with you, just to give a little bit of context as to as to how this came up, as well as
a particular interest. Robert Brockman: I've known you for a little while now, and Robert
Brockman: you know my background in getting interested in this goes back to roughly
2015. When I started doing.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I'll try. Robert Brockman: In Singapore. This is, I know you know these
things. By the way, Beatrice Ng-Kessler, this is mainly for the listeners, and Robert
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 2 of 25
Brockman: you know at that time. Robert Brockman: There were very little trainings in
Asia, you know, accredited schema therapy trainings that were available. There'd been one
or 2 here and there. Jeff Young had travelled to Singapore on one occasion. Robert
Brockman: and so there wasn't a lot of access to those kind of accredited trainings in Asia at
all, really, at that time, and Robert Brockman: it kind of struck me fairly early that it wasn't
really a sort of business, as usual thing. You know my job as a trainer, you know, therapists
were asking really interesting, but also Dicey questions about how the model applies in
their culture. I'm talking about Singapore. Robert Brockman: you know, so they would ask
things like, what if the client would never speak up to their parents in an assertive way like,
say, an imagery out of respect? Robert Brockman: Or you know what if speaking back to a
critic in any dialogues, might make the client feel worse in some way. Robert Brockman:
have a sort of iatrogenic effect.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: So some therapists started making
suggestions for modification of techniques based on more of an insider cultural
understanding. Robert Brockman: And I remember really clearly in my mind. Around 2019,
I was doing a training in Hong Kong. It was a level 2 training. And I started thinking. And we
had a really cool discussion with a bunch of guys that came back for level 2 training. Robert
Brockman: I realized I was probably learning more from them than they were learning from
me, that is, that I was learning as much, perhaps more, about the cultural nuances as they
were getting out of the level 2 training of the actual model. Robert Brockman: and I was
really humbled by that, and it really sparked an interest for me, and I sort of ran back to
Sydney, and at the time I had an academic position. Robert Brockman: and I started
planning a small study with the help of a master's student. Alana Mao at the time was doing
her master's at the University of Technology in Sydney, and we collaborated with folks here
in Hong Kong and also Singapore. So Cliff Hsu from Hong Kong, and also Michelle Neo from
Singapore. Robert Brockman: who had done the trainings, and we ran a small study Robert
Brockman: looking at the experience of Asian therapists applying the model in their local
context. So Robert Brockman: I will put that paper in the show notes. If anyone's interested
but fast forward to last year, you and I start talking sort of over the email and talking about
sort of issues to do with cultural lens and schema therapy, particularly Chinese cultural lens.
We start planning some things in terms of some trainings in Hong Kong. Robert Brockman:
and I really been enjoying your really thoughtful blog posts that you've been making for the
past 6 months or so. You know, looking at exactly this space, and in my eyes really fleshing
out a lot of nuance Robert Brockman: about working in this space. So this is the background.
I guess I wanted to share with the listeners for today's pod. And Robert Brockman: so, if we
could, if I could now ask you the 1st proper question, and we start the interview proper.
Robert Brockman: Why don't you just introduce yourself a little bit, Beatrice Ng-Kessler,
and say a few things about your background that might show its relevance to this area of
cultural practice and schema therapy.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, sure. So I have been practicing as a clinical psychologist for the
13 years right now, and I register in Hong Kong in the Uk.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 3 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And back. Then, when I was in Hong Kong, I opened my clinic in like
2,016, and by then I have, like around. Half of my clients are expats.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: which means they are not from Hong Kong. They can be from Asia,
countries, Europe, America, and then I took your class since 2,019, I think, and I was
accredited in 2,021, and I'm the I'm the 1st one in China and Hong Kong, and then I was
accredited as supervisor in 2,024.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So after I moved to the to London, in fact, I have more Chinese
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: client, I would say, in in with Chinese heritage or not exactly. They are
from China or Hong Kong, but they can be from different countries, but they speak our
language, or they have, like Chinese parents.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and so it it have. Give me different tastes of this. You know that how
Chinese has been affecting us in a way like the culture the not just the upbringing, but also
the parenting. Robert Brockman: So initially. When I met you, I met you roughly 2018 2019.
That was a set of trainings that we did at the time in Hong Kong, Chris and myself. Robert
Brockman: you completed the trainings. Robert Brockman: and at the time you were
working privately in Hong Kong with mostly Western expats, is that? Did I catch that right.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's it's like half-half at the time in Hong Kong. Robert Brockman: Like a
mix.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, it's not a mix. So so I have a lot of learning actually is from
applying it with Westerners
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: like, because that that for me is a tolerance training, I have to say,
because it's like.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because therapy takes so much of you right. And when you're working
it's almost very intimate right there, and the way I have to do with parenting in a very, very
explicit way, you know, with someone from an individualistic background
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: for me itself is a tolerance training, you know, like how I have to make
it very explicit to say those things in imagery and chair work. I often have goosebumps.
Robert Brockman: Like the limit of parenting. So so I'm imagining you mean things like, you
know I care about you. I'm here for you. Is that what you mean like some of those more
direct care.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, exactly. Exactly like, if I I invite a client to imagine your mom
saying this, I have to say something really close to where they are. Robert Brockman: So you
were doing. You're putting yourself through exposure therapy. That's what you're saying.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Exactly. Robert Brockman: And.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 4 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And I have like. Robert Brockman: And on your hierarchy. Were your
Western clients lower on the hierarchy, so was it easier initially to practice the model with
your Western expat clients and to say those things you know, practicing, I guess classic
schema therapy Robert Brockman: with expat Western clients before then going on to your
Chinese clients and trying to land some of these more intimate, limited, reparenting type
sentiments.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You can say that you can say that in some way it is more direct
applying. But at the same time it's for me, because I have that my own cultural background
making me actually not very familiar with those language.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So that's like an internal tolerance training for me. But on the surface,
you know, I have to see like. Oh, the client seems receptive to it, it seems really how things
work, you know. So so like, I have this kind of learning before you know I try to apply to
people closer to my own culture. Robert Brockman: Yep.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And also in supervision, you know. So I start to supervise people from
different cultural background, like clinical psychologists in the Uk Germany. And I also see,
like when I need to verbalize the clinical knowledge.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And I see that how? How? The difficulty of it like when I'm talking to a
express who is seeing an Asian client, for example.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: or the reverse. You know the Asian practitioners for Cnn. Expats, so I
see that I have to make them understand something through their own lens, and that have
made me practice a lot of you know how to verbalize those very toxic knowledge that I have
learned from the application. Robert Brockman: Yep, yep, and I mean, how? How's your
schema therapy journey been so far? So I know. I know that you did the workshops, and
then you ran off and got some supervision. Did you have a Robert Brockman: you know?
Who did you get supervised by someone from a Western background?
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: yes, yes, except you know, she is my 1st supervisor. So she is also
Chinese, but growing up in the Western countries and then all of them from a Western in
more individualistic background. But I have a fabulous experience. I would say, I totally
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: very, very important experience. I would. I would often say, it's a
corrective emotional experience to me. Being supervised by someone with different culture,
because I can see, like how my supervisor have been using chemotherapies.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: spirits in it, like the limited reparenting in the process. When I become
a supervisor, I go for supervision training. So I start to say, Oh, that's what! Why they are
doing this. Oh, that's what they are doing, you know. I. Robert Brockman: I see.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: To see and reflect on my own experience. So I do feel. This is partly
why I'm very passionate with schema therapy, and I also think practicing schema therapy
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 5 of 25
itself is strengthening. My healthy adult, too. Robert Brockman: So you've been healing
yourself along the way.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I think so. I think so. Robert Brockman: That's.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's very, very different from where I come from. You know the
supervision experience is totally different. Robert Brockman: There's a couple of threads
there like in my mind, and these things bounce around in my mind if I don't pick up on
them. Robert Brockman: One of them is that. And I can see that, you know, when I learned
schema therapy within a Western cultural background, it was just learning the model,
whereas I can see you're wrestling with 2 processes. You're learning the model. And then
you're doing a kind of cultural translation kind of piece. Where, how does this fit within the
cultural context that I'm from, or that I'm working in. Robert Brockman: So it's a tougher
job. You know, you're kind of it's almost like you're translating, you know, when you
translate like a measure or something, you have to translate it and back. Translate it. Robert
Brockman: You know.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, yes. Robert Brockman: That's very laborious.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Translator and back translator. That's exactly how I feel sometimes. So
it's not just the language. It's not just these, because it's not apple to apple.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Sometimes it's apple to orange, and then the orange means apple and
lemon. So is this. It's just a little. Robert Brockman: So this is what I'm interested in selfishly.
I want to learn. I want to know, you know, because it's only been this last couple of years.
Now we have someone like you who's made it all the way through to being an ISST
accredited supervisor. And that's very valuable for us also to have someone with that sort of
knowledge of the model, but also the cultural knowledge. So you'd be very busy doing the
back translation for the next 3 Robert Brockman: for years, while you know all that work's
being done to sort of understand how the model fits. Robert Brockman: And I guess that's
partly what we're doing today, you know, to really interrogate that a little bit more. So it's
very exciting. Robert Brockman: okay. And I just want to ask you another question here, I
guess. Look, let's dive straight into the sort of big ticket item. Robert Brockman: It's often
said that Asian cultures tend to be much more on the collectivist dimension versus more
individualistic. Robert Brockman: What impact might exposure to collectivist cultural
practices have on the development of particular schemas or coping modes.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I think one thing that we should bear in mind is that people from
collective listed culture, they used to see themselves as part of the group.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's less seeing themselves as an individual versus coming. You know,
people with individualistic backgrounds. So it changed a lot of things, of how we interact
with one another, and even how we perceive the world
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 6 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: so like the world that we grow up from is you. You are. You are not
taught to pursue your dream. You are taught to pursue, you know, to contribute. Robert
Brockman: With a big.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, good.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So you can see the self-sacrificing spirit like that. Robert Brockman: Or
it could be that you're taught to pursue somebody else's dreams, or the groups.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Or like the bigger the group. Yeah, the group. And it's a virtue, you
know. You're promoted. You reinforce you with appreciation. A lot of validation in from
from the authority from your parents, your teachers. So you are. You are taught that way.
So, and you can see that also, partly what we enforce the subjugation.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because you are not supposed to just
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: talk. Be yourself, but you are supposed to follow some rules like the
Hierarchical Society is very well received in most collectiveness culture. So there is strong
ideas about how we should interact with one another, with your senior, with someone. You
should be more respectful. And what does that mean by that? And often obedience is
trained since childhood.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because that's the way you show respect, or even, I would say love to
the authority, you know the obedience becomes part of the
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: voted. Robert Brockman: So. So we in Australia are not very obedient.
We're sort of we're convicts, we're, you know, back in the days. So Robert Brockman: you
know. Yeah, this is a very different culture. You know the idea of hierarchy, you probably
understand. In Australia. Culturally, we have a much more flat hierarchy. We really sort of
don't like strong hierarchies, whereas.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Where you're from. That's sort of a given that
things are more hierarchical, and that's normal and acceptable, and Robert Brockman: even
good things sometimes.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's seen as something positive. And you were
promoted by people with power, you know, like your parents, right? Like your school
teachers right? Your coach. Right? So it's very, very different upbringing, and it also apply in
the therapy room. It's common enough. The client will see the therapist as an authority.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: so they follow your advice.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So whenever you say something, they see it as this is the expert saying,
and I have to listen. Robert Brockman: And that can be a good thing sometimes.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 7 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It can be, of course, but at the same time it can be a barrier for us to
understand our client better, or in a in more depth, because they. Robert Brockman: To the
emotions.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Exactly like how they, you know how they can be free and feel safe to
express is something the therapists have to work on, and I see a lot of from my supervisor. I
see some time that I feel like from there, from a more individualistic background.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: They feel like they can just verbalize it. Robert Brockman: Hmm.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That means a safe space, right to invite your client openly like, Oh, I
want to. You want you to be feel free to express, and so they all mean good. Just the client
may not feel it the same way, because they may not have those experience.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You. You hear something, but you don't know. What does that actually
can happen?
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So for the clients, you know, they hear. It doesn't mean they really feel
safe to express themselves.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So the therapists have to do a lot more to create that safe space. Robert
Brockman: So so we're talking about, you're talking about sort of other directed type
schemas, self-sacrifice. Robert Brockman: you've talked about the sense of maybe
enmeshment type schemas might be more common, or at least there's a more of a cultural
pressure towards things like being very close to your family unit. Robert Brockman: Yeah,
you've talked about things like conformity. So we're talking about things like.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Put pressure to be more subjugated and to sort
of Robert Brockman: so to keep harmony, let's say in the group, yeah, to put your own needs
aside Robert Brockman: that cluster of schemas. Can I mention that? Can I mention
unrelenting standards? You didn't mention it? But is this can be a bit more common as well.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. In general, I have the impression, too. Like, I mean, landing
standard is assumed.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So with a lot of people with Chinese heritage. So you in the more
layman terms is. Sometimes you feel they're more competitive. Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Because they have very high demands, since they were very small. So
they're used to that. They talk to themselves that way. Robert Brockman: Yes, it's more. It's
more normalized within the culture.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. Robert Brockman: I want to have a little
sidetrack here. I heard it was. I've got some, you know. I supervise a few people in Hong
Kong and Singapore, and Robert Brockman: and the mental health system is very tricky.
Let's say, particularly in Hong Kong. There's a lot of pressure on the system. Robert
Brockman: you know, for those in public mental health, and it's common that therapists are
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 8 of 25
seeing a lot of clients. You know. They have a very big list, a very big wait list. Robert
Brockman: It's a lot of pressure.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: And Robert Brockman: sometimes it leads
even to the situation where a therapist might be seeing a client at best, once a month. For
some it might be once every 2 months.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. 2 monthly. Yeah. Kind of contact. Robert Brockman: And it has
been said to me more than once from these therapists, even though they are frustrated, they
said, you know what, Rob. Robert Brockman: in some weird way, some of the clients,
because the resource is so constricted they come very, very motivated, almost with a sort of
unrelenting attitude. Let's get the most out of this session. I'm not going to see you for 2
months. Robert Brockman: and.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yep. Robert Brockman: And absolutely taking full advantage of these
sessions. So that was sort of something I hadn't thought of that could be possible. I mean,
what do you think of that idea.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That's where we
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: normal to me. I have been working in public setting in Hong Kong
before. That's very normal. That's why therapist is very exhausted, and sometimes overload
the client with too much information by just speaking.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know, experiential intervention is very different from your psycho
educating your client, but a lot of therapists, because they want to give the most in that very
short period of time.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Then they become like they talk too much because they want to give
you so much things. They help you. Robert Brockman: And usually that would be a trap like
we think that's a bit of a trap in schema. But Robert Brockman: it's tough if you're running.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It affects the safe space, you know, like what I just mentioned about the
role of authority within the therapy room. Sometimes it becomes, you know you are being a
teacher right there too much, and the clients doesn't actually able to feel how they feel by
verbalizing it enough, or by staying with their emotion enough to experience something. But
the therapist is very rushed, so they have the stress of doing more
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: that becomes difficult for them to create a safe space because they may
intervene too quickly, and they may not pay enough close enough attention. You know of
how the clients speak and listen to something that's unspoken
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because of our cultural background. There's a lot of things you're not
supposed to say like your therapist. Say, Oh, you must feel blah blah, and you may not feel
that's exactly right. But your tendency will told you. Yeah, yeah.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 9 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: you don't bother to clarify. Robert Brockman: Yeah. And it's so tough if
you Robert Brockman: you know. Oftentimes in the process things happen in therapy, and
then the client knows they're going to see you next week. So the process continues, but then
they wouldn't see you, maybe for a month or 2 months, and then they just got to hang there
and sit with that feeling for like for a long time, so it can. It is a big constraint, let's say so.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, and also the rapport building. Right? You have a lot of, you know,
almost like every time you and you see them, you have to build your rapport again. Robert
Brockman: So, Beatrice Ng-Kessler, thinking about this dimension of Collectivist versus
individualistic. Robert Brockman: And you know what are some, some practical ways that
you've had to adapt your schema therapy.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I would say you have to be quite creative in how you do limited
reparenting, for example.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I often tell my supervisor that you know I consider surfing tea, for my
client is part of my limited repair, and
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because in our culture, you know, like when, especially when you feel
your client feel shameful.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: almost like there's not much thing you can say without acting on the
shame when they are at that moment feeling really shameful. So you need something
nonverbal. But you can't hurt your client right most of the time, so you need to do
something without saying too much, and I found serving tea is one of the really good way to
do it in our culture. And another way is, you know, I remember what they like
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: that would add on it, you know they would feel the connection that I
would give them like. Oh, here is the your favorite green tea. I put it here, you know. That's
what I that's all I say when they are crying, and I know they experience huge shame inside
them.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And this is one of those where we need to nonverbal stuff that we
would need to adapt when it comes to the limited parenting. Robert Brockman: Yeah. So
that's cool. That's a really practical thing. So you've got a big old box of tea in the corner, and
you're ready to make some tea, if you know if it feels right. If it feels like it's going to add to
the connection and the care.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. When I, when I was in Hong Kong, I used to have a bunch of
tea for selection. So from the very beginning. I know what. Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Client will always select.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So I would remember that, and then, when necessary, I would take you
know I would use those information. Robert Brockman: Go and get them some jasmine,
some jasmine tea. Always. Robert Brockman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Robert Brockman: Nice.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 10 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Reminds me some of my Asian clients in
Australia. They'll say things like, you know, when I fight with Mom or something. She won't
talk to me, but then, you know, eventually she'll come and ask me like she's made soup or
something, and so there won't be a sort of discussion about. I'm sorry, or something like
this, or I'm trying to understand. But they'll understand that it's kind of over. If Mom's
serving some food or soup and took some effort. Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember there were another time that I I bought
the favorite food of one of my clients. It's a kind of a tart
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: that is not very easy to find, but I prepare it. And then for the session,
because she has lots of trauma, so she's very easy to dissociate at the same time. So that
would help, you know, like not just to build a rapport feeling safe, feeling being careful. You
remember what I want. You want extra money to get me the cake that I like, but also that's
part of the things that she can use to
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: grant herself.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: When she feels so triggered. Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So I think that kind of thing matters. You know those very small
observations that you made
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: that would come way very. Robert Brockman: Yeah, I did. I was talking
to Susan Simpson not very long ago, like last week, and she because she, of course, working
with eating disorders. Robert Brockman: and she was saying that that something similar
pathways that Robert Brockman: you know, some clients, they, because in their family of
origin, oftentimes they've been restricted of food. Robert Brockman: and they develop. She
calls almost like a food deprivation schema. Robert Brockman: and it feels very similar to
emotional deprivation when your parents don't provide for you in that way. You feel
hungry, but you also feel unloved and uncared about. So she was saying. There's a special
connection between the provision of food in the family of origin and the provision of care,
that it's a physical aspect of care.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: So she draws similar conclusions, not in a
cultural way, but in actually a.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Bye, yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. And I can add on the cultural favor right here by, you know, from
more collectively culture, or I should say, more Chinese culture right here, because it's very
specific about food. Food is something the parents would show love to their children. They
don't say I love you almost. You know you almost you don't hear it, and but they cook the
food that you like. Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: They make you eat it, they make sure you eat enough until you almost
explode, you know that's the that's the parents showing how much I care about you. Robert
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 11 of 25
Brockman: Yeah. So so okay, when I come to Hong Kong and my colleagues take me to
Chinese food. And I put on 5 kilos from eating Chinese every night. Robert Brockman: This is
a way of expressing care and connection.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Certainly. Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That'd be. Robert Brockman: Okay, that's I'm understanding. Now what
that's about. Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Yeah, I definitely felt that, you know, lots of
folk offers to come and eat, and it's all revolving around food.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yay! Robert Brockman: So what about imagery? I guess. Robert
Brockman: How does that land? I've got some ideas I've also tested out. And how have you
had to modify your approach to imagery. We know also that imagery can be quite
confrontational, like how Robert Brockman: yes, with parents and whatnot. How have you
approached that so far.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, I think that imagery scraping. There's quite some adaptations
right there, and also the empathetic confrontations with the client's parents. So sometimes
the imagery is doing this work, and it has to be so tactful
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: that sometimes I explain to my ex pet super. I see that you have an idea
of. You'll be parenting the client's parents.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So so in a way, you know that that is actually the empathetic
confrontation that we need.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: For example, like you don't confront the parents in front of the
children
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because that makes them lose faith in our culture. Robert Brockman:
So this is another big one. This is another big cultural issue.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Losing. Fat. Robert Brockman: Yeah. Robert
Brockman: Face. Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, you can't do that. So no, no, you can't do that in front of the
kids. You have to move them, you know, can we speak in a room so so? And but in the
imagery you have to also make sure the client can hear that the vulnerable child. More can
also hear how you are standing up for them and protecting them. Robert Brockman: So you
might modify.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And to hear.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, yes. Robert Brockman: In terms of having sorry. So I'm just trying
to think this through you might modify into in terms of having the child in another room
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 12 of 25
where? Where they're not. They're not seeing the Robert Brockman: they're not seeing the
parent.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Usually I bring the parents in another room to speak.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and I would make sure, like the child can hear.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: But they can't see. Robert Brockman: So you're saying, Okay, little
Jenny. I want you to go to your room now, and the doors are jars. You can hear we're gonna
have a talk. You can understand what's happening right? But but this is a conversation
between me and your mother. Robert Brockman: Okay, you can listen in. I'm talking to,
mum. Now, can you hear? Yeah, something like this? Yeah, yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Do it as. Robert Brockman: Some kind of modified script or anything.
No.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: No, no, for until I do supervision, I start to see my my supervisor
wanted, but, like I usually bring the parents to their room, so leave the child there. So if if I
can take the clients healthy at the moment with me, that would be the healthy at the most
job to stay with the one. Robert Brockman: Oh, so you're being very creative. Actually, you
know. Robert Brockman: Yep, yep, I can see using the cultural principles and being very
creative.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah. And I might remove the parents, but make sure that they
can hear it outside without seeing it. And the point is not just that, you know to remove
them, so the parent doesn't feel to lose face, but also the child feel less guilty, you know, if
the child can see their parents was being lectured. That's how they would feel, you know,
like, or someone talking because of me.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Someone talking. Robert Brockman: Oh, my God!
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Balancing that way.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: They feel too guilty. Robert Brockman: So actually the and this is what
it means when people say, what if? What if the rebuking? What if the intervention makes
Robert Brockman: the client feel worse, it becomes iatrogenic. And it could be that your
intervention makes the client feel more guilty. Right? And that would be Robert Brockman:
yeah, not what we want.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, so you were trying to manage it. But at the same time I often
encourage my supervisor. See? Like you know, don't feel too discouraged. If your client do
come out and tell you they feel guilty doesn't mean you fail. You will have to see it, as this is
part of the package of healing as well. It's just natural that they feel that way.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It comes together. It's almost like, you know, for parents. If their child
get hurt in some way the parents feel guilty, no matter what it's not, it's not about. They
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 13 of 25
really responsible for the accident, but they somehow feel they should do something. Robert
Brockman: Yep.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know you. Robert Brockman: Yeah, it's normal. It's feeling guilty is
normal, like having some conscience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Robert Brockman: okay. And so the
principle I'm getting. And this came up in in our research, too. Robert Brockman: You know
those sort of harsh rebuking Robert Brockman: that are classic schema therapy where
you're kicking out the parent. And you're saying, what's wrong? Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Robert Brockman: And these kind of things.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah. Robert Brockman: This isn't.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Fine. Robert Brockman: Is, this is not in most.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Bye. Robert Brockman: Not recommended.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: In a child. Robert Brockman: And slash, probably Asian cultural
background. We had it in Singapore, too. The same advice Robert Brockman: this is this is
almost always not a good idea.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Unless the parents are abusive. Robert Brockman: Right. So if they're,
you know, in the act of hurting a child in the image. Robert Brockman: But what about
verbally abusive.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So that's a good point. Because in in the Chinese context, like a lot of
critical parent mode, and quite a match with the primitive parent mode.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: so they come with a good intention when they are being critical and
demanding.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: But the language can go into a very primitive, paramount, like personal
attack, like. Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Being almost verbally abusive. So we, our job is to try to see when the
client is here and when the client is being alternative parent there, and in the chair work, for
example, I would separate them into 2 chairs.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: in the imagery. That is much more tricky because the therapists. They
have to see it. When is the time that you have to change your strategy
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: when you're working with the parents.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and you have to also psycho. Educate the client! Why, you have
changed from here to here, why, you are trying to negotiate and talk to them properly. And
then suddenly, there's a moment you have to stop and ask them to stop talking. You don't
humiliate the client anymore. So you're educating the client that what is totally. Robert
Brockman: So so your basic stance, usually in in this cultural context with parents, parents
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 14 of 25
meaning in the image Robert Brockman: is based on more of an empathic confrontation
approach.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's it happens often. Robert Brockman: You're dialing down, you're
dialing down the rebuking right to something that looks more like empathic confrontation,
even even with a big emphasis on empathy and compassion.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And so this is the confrontational part more. But the empathetic part.
How do we deliver it? Sometimes? It's like you have to really go into the parents world a
little bit in your head like you have to understand how that parents may feel in that context.
For example, like lots of father are not quite involved in any childcare, any household work.
So so the mom is super exhausted. So you have to speak from. Robert Brockman: So you're
talking. Look, I know you're so exhausted. You're doing so many things for the family. You're
looking after your parents, too. You're looking after 3 generations.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah. Robert Brockman: You know you have all these
responsibilities. So, showing that kind of empathy.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the language part. And also I will offer like, do
you want me to help? How about you? Now go to West, and I take care of your child right
now. Don't worry. I will be okay to do it, you know. Or do you want me to wash the dishes
for you. So it's an act of service. That's the way we deliver love.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You don't just talk because they feel a little, you know. Yeah. So you
know, or like, they don't feel so receptive from a collective listed culture by just talking. But
you have to do something that would help them to feel more, you know, relief or sooth. And
then the child also feel more relief from the guilt.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Because you're really taking care of my mom right now. Robert
Brockman: And that's what it meant, what you meant when you're when you're saying that
oftentimes you find yourself looking after the child mode within the parent within the
image.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah. That's why I told my supervisor like, you'll be parenting
your clients. Parents like that. Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And that is part of your work of with parenting the vulnerable trauma.
Robert Brockman: You're keeping little mum in mind Robert Brockman: like like. So now
we're getting very meta.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: But we're kind of keeping in mind the
vulnerabilities of the parent and what they're going.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, yes, exactly. Yes. Robert Brockman: As usually oftentimes, that I
think that's kind of missing in our model. It's kind of assumed. No, this is bad parenting. This
needs to be. This has to stop this. We're calling this out. We're going to call this out. Robert
Brockman: you know. It's less of that and more of the empathic confrontation.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 15 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And then then that's partly the culture. Right? We see, we
define ourselves with relationship.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So you cannot be so clear cut like, oh, this is her, and this is me.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: This is our relationship.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So how do I navigate this part in between. Robert Brockman: So that
things are more enmeshed in a sort of normalised way. That's what you're saying.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: From the westernized lens, they would think, oh, this is a mesh! It it
does fulfill the criteria. Robert Brockman: But in a normal life.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Like. Robert Brockman: Want to say, like.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Exactly like the video piety. Right? Like, you know, you're supposed to
match your parents expectations. Robert Brockman: Okay, you bring up an important point,
because Robert Brockman: one of the issues that has came up in the study is the issue of, as
you say filial piety. Robert Brockman: and this is a Confucian philosophical principle that
seems to be important across most of Southeast Asian cultures. Robert Brockman: Can you
define filial piety for us and describe its impact that it might have on, let's say, the
development of certain schemes and modes.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And filial piety is something I would say doesn't exist in the
individualistic culture. You know, I marry a white guy. So I think I have some reference for
the context, because it filial piety includes that you, as a child, you have to make your
parents feel proud. The relationship have to be happy and peaceful, and you are expected to
match your parents expectations.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You don't argue with your parents, and you have to please them.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So that's part of the things that you know. This is more in a more
individualistic culture.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and you can see how it would
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: very possibly facilitate some enmeshment right there. Robert
Brockman: Yeah. And this, I mean, it sounds like a nice idea in a lot of ways, right? That you
know, younger generation looking after the old generation. I guess in the beginning it's
older generation looking after the younger generation. And it's a kind of circle. Robert
Brockman: the things that that and you, you know this, the things that becomes difficult is
when one or more of the parents are either Robert Brockman: mentally unstable or just
outright, violent or bullying.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yay! Robert Brockman: Let's say, let's let's say, let's just say
narcissistic. Okay, if you had a narcissistic.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Sorry.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 16 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: You have to be filial to this person. Robert
Brockman: What kind of challenge does that throw up? And I'm going to put it on you now,
Beatrice Ng-Kessler, how do you navigate this.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, it's so difficult. I have clients struggle with this kind of trauma.
And it's very, very difficult, because it violate your basic value system inside you that you,
the whole upbringing, tell you, or the whole environment.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: educate you off. So it's really, really difficult to strengthen the healthier
part to an extent that you can see. There's some right there that I haven't met. I haven't have
when I was smaller.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: so
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: right there, like, you know. We have to see a few things before we can
go to the narcissistic, really pathological part. So we have the freedom to express our
emotion and needs as one of the core needs right.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And in the, you know, feeling of piety, this culture. It doesn't promote
that. Robert Brockman: You. You are not promote to express your needs or promotions.
Robert Brockman: because it might upset your parents.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Exactly. The orientation is at the parents, not at the child. Right? So
that's a fundamental difference there.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: But at the same time it made us have the sense of intimacy and love
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: experience in a very different way, as what you have mentioned, like
the commitment
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: right, the commitment of taking care of the elderly, or we taking care of
one another right? We have much stronger obligations in the in the way that we grow up,
and we are educated, that we are more
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: concern or emphasize on our responsibility and obligation between
one another, so the intimacy and the love is experienced fluid. But when your parents is a
narcissistic parents that becomes something really, really difficult, because the parents
themselves doesn't manifest in the way they supposed to be. You know, it's not exactly
where you educate them. Robert Brockman: And in a Western culture there's a much more
of well, if that's the case, your parents need boundaries.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: So, you know, we would talk to people about
setting boundaries with their adult parents and Robert Brockman: those kind of things that
becomes much harder when the culture says you have to be filial to this person.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 17 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: What's your advice? Let's say to your clients
generally, who are stuck in that situation. How do you navigate that? The fact that how do
you promote their individuation? Where that's a core problem.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. And then, and you have to bring the client to see
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: how their parents is not the typical parents. If they are narcissistic,
way to that level. So you have to bring them to see their parents. It's not
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: what they expect, but we're far from it to a level that's not average, so
you have to bring them to see it, because they can't see it. Robert Brockman: So you still
have to undermine. What you're saying is, you're still undermining the parent in a way
you're saying that.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You can say undermining, you can say undermining as a as a term, I
would say, to bring them to see the reality. You know if the clients are narcissistic where
they are doing it for their own good, but not for the for the children. Robert Brockman:
Yeah, yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: All, they are manipulative, abusive, and controlling. Robert Brockman:
And I agree. I agree with you like, I think that's probably going to be useful. Like to see to
see it for what it is. Robert Brockman: but in a sense, within a filial worldview that can be
seen as undermining the relationship. No.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. So the how is not so I'm talking about the principle right to bring
them to see it. But how to bring them to see it. One of the thing is the imagery. Scripting is
really useful.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Sometimes, when they revisit the childhood experience with some
protection. For example, when I do the imagery scripting, I would ask them to more, seeing
it as a 1st person perspective.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So they don't become the wonderful child anymore, because it's too
much too painful. If their parents are so abusive, they have to have that distance to see their
own right there, so they can start to have a little, you know self-compassion to see that. Oh,
this is what that child suffered, or if that's an even more
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: severe situations, I may ask them to imagine that something that they
tell me about their own experience happened to. For example, the student. Robert
Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: To another person that they care for.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Then they can have a little bit different perspective to see what is really
happening. But it takes a very long time. This process. Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That they can really internalize.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 18 of 25
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Oh, this is if this is actually what it is, it's not my fault. It's not me being
disloyal. Robert Brockman: I've had some Asian supervisees even use chair work in a very
creative way to put. They've put sort of Chinese culture on a chair, or put Confucius on a
chair, or this kind of things, to start a dialogue with the culture as a sort of critic.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And. Robert Brockman: Rather than talk to their parents per se, but to
talk to Robert Brockman: culture, and to understand where that comes from, and the sort of
message that they receive. Have you ever done anything like that.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: No, because it's have to. You know the client have to be very educated
and very conceptual
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: right if we have to do a level of of that. I haven't did that before, but I
do have, you know, except I don't usually put the parents on the chair unless in a quite a
later stage of therapy. Robert Brockman: Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Healthy animal is really well developed. Robert Brockman: That's a
weird tip that I found even I found that. And that's even for non-Asian clients when they
struggle with loyalty, problems with their parents.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Really clear that what we're talking to now is
your inner critic. Okay, and drop it Robert Brockman: any parent metaphor. This is not your
inner parent. This is your inner critic, and that's been giving you a hard time and get away
from the sort of idea that you're interacting with the parents Robert Brockman: that seems
to be really helpful in starting to help them with their inner critic without getting into a kind
of guilt. Inducing type issues.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: And we have to also emphasize in the process of that therapy. Right?
We have to emphasize that you know the goal is for you to love your parents so it's so
difficult to love someone that's abusive.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: right? It's like, what do you mean by love them? Right? So it's how can I
love without being, you know, within the filial piety? So what this love means? So you have
to educate them like you have to have that safe space and certain distance psychologically,
physically, to feel you are safe. And you're healthy in order to be able to love that person
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: without, you know, broken without yourself, broken and damaged and
unhealthy. So that is the way that you have to. Robert Brockman: There is some ways that
you're setting boundaries. The boundaries are just not as dramatic, you know Robert
Brockman: the way you put it like. So so you know it's not that you have to leave the home
necessarily and go and get your own flat unit and tell your mom I'm not, you know I'm only
coming over once a month or something. Robert Brockman: It's less dramatic. You might be
stuck there. That's another feature. Actually, I found in Asia. I think house accommodation is
very expensive, so there's often multi-generational living Robert Brockman: are living with
their parents and their grandparents for a long time. That's a separate issue. But it does
present challenges to Robert Brockman: clients who are trying to individuate and to set
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 19 of 25
boundaries. Robert Brockman: yeah, you remind me like one of the. And I wonder we
haven't spoken of this. One of the strategies that I've seen work Robert Brockman: around
this is Robert Brockman: where there's a less dramatic boundary setting is that I find that
the children adult children would start to individuate more outside of the house where they
have their own life.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Have the Yes friends, they have their own.
They're doing things. They're probably being naughty as well. Robert Brockman: But when
they come home they're very much saving face for the mom and filial. Robert Brockman:
And so there's the kind of 2 worlds going on there as well in the way they set boundaries.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, sometimes it's Oh, I can. I can say the FH would appear that way,
and that's exactly why, sometimes, you know, if it depends on how healthy or what is. My
clients go in therapy.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: but sometimes, you know, for some clients they are more, you know, in
a healthier stage and seeking more self-growth. I would I would talk to them about how you
can really feel intimate with your parents.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know the so-called confrontation is not actually a separation, but
seeking them. You really feel intimate with them because you are really honest.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because you're really authentic, because you're really willing to take
the risk that your parents is angry and doesn't feel. Don't feel happy of what you're saying.
But you're still taking this risk to let them understand you.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: That's actually a path to be actually more intimate by a little bit view
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: that may sound confrontational in a Chinese context. So that's a risk
assessment right there of how you would take it, you know. Handle it tactfully. And would
you pursue that path to seek that intimacy within your family? That's the client's choice.
Robert Brockman: Yeah, it makes sense. Robert Brockman: And what about? I mean, the
other thing that came up in our study was the expression of emotions. So you know cultural
differences in the expression of emotions. Robert Brockman: Do you find that's more of an
issue, you know, is emotional inhibition more common in your Asian clients, and is there a
need to adjust your approach.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I I do feel, you know. I'm not sure they are entirely equal to emotional
inhibition schema
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: but I do feel like the most Asian science. They tend to be more reserved
in their emotional expression.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: including myself. So I can. I can easily relate to how they don't easily
verbalize how they feel, because that's not in their culture. They don't train to do that.
Robert Brockman: Did you get? Are you less emotionally inhibited now that you're a schema
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 20 of 25
therapist like? Did Robert Brockman: did you hear some of that, or did you? Did you change
that.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I would say, you know, like, if I'm communicating with an expats, I
would definitely have a different model. Robert Brockman: Oh, wow! You have. You have
different modes. Robert Brockman: I'm talking 2 modes as a therapist you got like Robert
Brockman: Chinese mode, and you got Western expat mode. And and you can switch. Robert
Brockman: Yeah, yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, I feel the difference in the way that I express my emotions. And
but I do need some warm up. I would say, you know, compared to the people with
individualistic culture, they are more just right away they can express. But for me, you
know, I learned the words. I learned the tools. Not necessarily, I would apply it. It really
depends on the context.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because it is also overly expressive. If it's in some more reserve or
collective. Robert Brockman: Isn't it.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Ultra. Robert Brockman: Hmm.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It becomes over. People are like, Yeah, that's your monologue. Robert
Brockman: It was put to us in our study like one of the threads was. It was kind of explained
that Robert Brockman: it's not that everyone, let's say in Hong Kong is emotion inhibited.
It's just that the average in the bell curve is different. So you know, the bell curve kind of
moved. Robert Brockman: And so you know, the most expressive person in in, let's say in
Hong Kong is still within the normal range of a more western sample. Robert Brockman:
Right. It's just that the average is less on average than a Western sample. So you can imagine
the bell curves kind of move to one end. But there's so much overlap like on average people
are still within each other's averages. I don't know if I kind of got that right. But Robert
Brockman: so and actually, I'm pretty sure it was, Cliff was saying this. He was one of the
study authors. Robert Brockman: you know he was sort of saying that he believes that when
people learn to do schema therapy in that culture, it's they shouldn't probably try to go and
be Robert Brockman: be Rob Brockman, or to be their trainer, the Western trainer, and to
do it in such an expressive way it might be a little bit of a mistake, but to find the right
bandwidth. Yes, to turn up the emotional resonance. But within the window of tolerance, for
for the culture.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes, yes, yes, that's a very good way to put it. Yeah, yeah. Robert
Brockman: Found that.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. And within the window of tolerance. That's exactly it. Robert
Brockman: So we do want.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You can't attune to your. Robert Brockman: Do want our Asian schema
therapists to be more expressive. We want them to take the model seriously and to promote
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 21 of 25
emotional expression, but also to keep in mind the window of tolerance that they don't have
to do it exactly the same way that they learn or.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Because it might be slightly inappropriate. So
they've got to find. And it's always.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Hard to define. Where is where is the window?
Right.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And that's
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: is, there's 2 way to see it, too. So that's what you said. I found it very
valid and applicable. And also we also need to bear in mind your client may feel some grief
there.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It may sound very weird. So because if you adopt a way to be more
explicit, to verbalize
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: you. You have to second, find some kind of connection that you use to
feel from no, no need to speak like this. You know what I mean.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: The connection that from our own culture, like our intimacy, is coming
from. I don't speak, my niece, and you know it. Robert Brockman: Hmm, hmm.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Right, but you have to willing to navigate that part before you can learn
the language, and to be very explicit
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and become much more verbalizing your emotions.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So there's a 2 things happening there, and the clients have to also
experience this part of grief
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: before they can earn those things that you have just said. Robert
Brockman: Okay, okay. Now, now, I've got 2 more questions for you, and then I think we can
start wrapping up. Robert Brockman: what? What general advice do you have for the for the
Asian therapist who wants to start their schema journey? Robert Brockman: What sort of
advice do you have for them? Is it. Is it worth it? Robert Brockman: Is it something that you
would that you would recommend.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Of course, of course, because I think that's something really
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: important for us, for people from our culture partly is. I also see, the
benefit of, you know, able to be verbalizing your feelings and your needs would help in
setting boundaries when things are very unspoken. It's very difficult to set boundaries, the
boundaries where we wait.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: So I see in general that something really how chemotherapy bring in to
this culture is really positive and helpful. Robert Brockman: Yeah. And what advice do you
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 22 of 25
have for Robert Brockman: the schema therapists from non-Asian backgrounds, who
invariably will work with Asian clients or clients with diverse backgrounds and coming
from collectivist cultures. Robert Brockman: What advice do you give the non-Asian, non-
collectivist sort of background therapists about working cross-culturally.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: I think that the most important one, I think, is that the therapist have to
understand they have to be a safe space with their clients, and that's something they may
feel likely to constantly working on.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: because they have to show them this is safe to express themselves, and
they have to show they are very liberal. They were open. They may not know everything,
but we're curious about what the clients really experiencing. So this is like you were
expanding the client's window of tolerance in terms of expression. So it's not so direct like I
give the language, please use it.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: It's more like how they can feel they can do it. And you are not judging
them. That's something really important as a basics. Robert Brockman: It's so interesting,
like Robert Brockman: the thing that I always try to. Probably my own framework is I try to
reach out and let them know that Robert Brockman: I realized that things might be a little
different for them, culturally, and open up, as you say, a safe space for that. Robert
Brockman: that I don't assume anything. You know. I don't assume one way or the other.
But I'm curious about okay. Where did you grow up? What were things like in your
background. How can that affect your problems? How can that affect this space? I'm curious.
I want to learn. I want to understand. So I try to make a safe space culturally, and to let them
know I'm not assuming anything at this stage, one way or the other. Robert Brockman:
because I also found the the opposite is also true. Sometimes you can assume. Oh, you know
she's from Hong Kong. She must. It must be like this. Robert Brockman: That's also kind of
not cool on occasions, too. So I think when you say safe space, I do, of course, agree with
that. Robert Brockman: If for me.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Safe cultural space, like where I'm not really an
expert on that. But I but I'm curious, and I want to understand, and I'm willing to make
some adjustments, you know, together.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and also like having this, you know, a little cultural
elements in our head that is not used to trying to oversimplify the clients in front of us, but
also, but more like pointing us to ask a more appropriate questions. Robert Brockman:
Yeah.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know, like, Oh, does that? Does that? Is that something you mean
this way? And can I clarify?
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: You know, or I see you are a little hesitated just now. Would you tell
me what had just happened? You know, like you pay close attention and ask more
appropriate questions. Robert Brockman: And this could be the last question, because and I
think you also sit in a good spot with this, because you also have. Your husband is a
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 23 of 25
European, and you have children also that are European and Chinese Robert Brockman: is
the aspect of people who come from diverse backgrounds. Robert Brockman: and how this
also makes the work Robert Brockman: more interesting, more diverse. It's not a simple
story, right? Like so.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yes. Robert Brockman: Have a background where they're partly from
here and partly from here. How do you deal with those kind of 3rd culture Robert
Brockman: kind of people.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah, it's yeah, that's we. We always have to be very curious. That's
how I feel. Like, you know, you want to know this person, that, and maybe you don't put it in
a box like this is Chinese person.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: This is Australian, you know. You don't put them in a box. You see them
as a person, because the Australian may be living in China for 20 years.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: right? Like. So there's a lot of merging there that we want to see that
person so that we can attune to that person. So we become more aware of the stereotype
that in our head, or the assumptions that we have. So when we have more of this awareness,
we can be better attuned and connect to the clients. Robert Brockman: Yeah, makes sense.
Robert Brockman: Well, that's been invigorating, Beatrice Ng-Kessler, sort of Robert
Brockman: overview of some of some of the issues and some of your work. And I know that
the process is going to be ongoing. There's still a lot of work to be done in understanding
how this work sort of fits within different cultures. And we're really happy to have you
heading up some of that work. I just wanted to mention a few things. This is a sort of plug
Robert Brockman: time of the Podcast number one. I'm super excited. Our Cambridge Guide
to Schema therapy has officially, it's officially being translated into simplified Chinese. It's
called the Chinese edition, so that will be coming out.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Great. Robert Brockman: September, I believe for those, because I do
think there'll be a lot of Chinese and Asian schema therapists listening to this, podcast
Robert Brockman: we've got some training coming up this year. We already ran level. One
training in Hong Kong. Once we have one cohort already graduated. Robert Brockman: we
have another training coming up in June of this year in Hong Kong, in Central Hong Kong
Island, right.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. Robert Brockman: Yeah, if. And also, we have Level 2 coming up
later on. I think it's in October or September. That's with Chris Hayes also with you, Beatrice
Ng-Kessler, training alongside him and myself. Robert Brockman: and if you want to check
those out, just go to schematherapytraining.com, and then click on Hong Kong, and you'll
see the links there to go through there. Robert Brockman: I know also, Beatrice Ng-Kessler,
you have your own. You have some other trainings going on, and opportunities in this space.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Yeah. And in June I'm going to give a 1 day class in Cantonese. So it's
more for the cannon speaker. I think that's the 1st Cantonese class in the world. So I'm going
to demonstrate some, you know, experiential intervention like what I've just described, and
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 24 of 25
there will be video demonstration as well. So I'm very excited to it. The class is almost full
right now, and I'm planning to give another 2 h class in September online.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: which probably name something like cultural adaptation in schema
therapy.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: and it will be in English. So both cards can be found from the Chinese
schema therapy website. Robert Brockman: Yeah, which is chineseschemotherapy.com, and
you'll see Beatrice Ng-Kessler has all her blogs and everything up there. Robert Brockman:
and I really recommend her blogs on these matters. They're very in-depth and very
interesting. Robert Brockman: So it's a good place to start. I have to mention last plug, I
promise guys, because I've also got some really cool partners over in Singapore who
support our work over there. Also in spreading the word about schema therapy. Robert
Brockman: And that's Annabelle psychology over in Singapore. So if anyone's a bit closer to
Singapore and they want to get some schema therapy training, you can go to Annabelle
psychology and you'll find the training and then schema therapy training. You can see Chris
and I get over there usually once a year as well do our level. One level. 2 trainings. Robert
Brockman: Beatrice Ng-Kessler. Thanks for coming on board and sharing your work with us,
and thanks everyone for tuning in. See, you guys.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Thank you. Thanks for having me too. Robert Brockman: Thanks,
patriots! Bye.
Beatrice Ng-Kessler: Bye.
Summary
In this episode of 'What's the Schemata?', Robert Brockman interviews Beatrice Ng-Kessler,
a private practitioner based in London and founder of the Chinese Schema Therapy
Academy in Hong Kong. They discuss Beatrice’s journey into schema therapy, her cultural
background, and the unique challenges of applying schema therapy within a Chinese
cultural context. Beatrice shares insights from her experience working with both Western
and Chinese clients and reflects on how practicing schema therapy has been a personally
transformative experience for her. The conversation explores themes of cultural sensitivity,
supervision, and the importance of adapting therapeutic techniques for diverse populations.
Key Points
• Beatrice Ng-Kessler is a pioneer in schema therapy in China and Hong Kong, recently
accredited as a supervisor.
• Her experience spans both individualistic (Western) and collectivist (Chinese) cultural
contexts.
• Practicing schema therapy with Western clients helped her build tolerance for
emotional expression and explicit techniques.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob BrockmanPage 25 of 25
• She has found schema therapy to be a personally healing process, strengthening her
own Healthy Adult mode.
• Cultural differences require careful adaptation of reparenting and imagery techniques.
• Supervision played a critical role in her development, offering a corrective emotional
experience.
• She emphasizes the importance of verbalizing nuanced clinical knowledge across
cultures.
© schematherapytrainingonline.com
What’s the Schemata? A Podcast for Schema Therapists with Chris Hayes & Rob Brockman
The Keys to Developing Skills and Competency In Schema Therapy: A Roundtable Discussion with Tara Cutland Green
https://www.apa.org/pubs/books/deliberate-practice-schema-therapy#:~:text=Deliberate%20Practice%20in%20Schema%20Therapy%20provides%20a%20practical%20guide%20to,then%20change%20their%20unhelpful%20reactions.
In this episode, Rob the “Mode Mystic” and Chris discuss metaphors and how these can be used and implemented in Schema therapy
This episode is from our 2024 Connect Conference in Sydney (November 2024) with Rob Brockman presenting on New Developments in Research and Practice
In today's episode, we meet with Michiel van Vreeswijk who is a Clinical Psychologist, Advanced Schema Therapist and researcher based in Delft Netherlands. We discussed the concept of authenticity and how we can be more real within schema therapy. We also discuss the application of AI and how these can be useful within the schema therapy context, discuss recent research trends.
This episode we speak with Georgie Paulik White, an associate professor clinical psychology based in Perth who specialises in the treatment of voice hearing.
Here’s some papers of Georgie’s work:
Strachan, L. P., Paulik, G., Roberts, L., & McEvoy, P. M. (2023). Voice hearers' explanations of trauma-related voices and processes of change throughout imagery rescripting: A qualitative exploration. Psychology and Psychotherapy: Theory, Research and Practice, 96, 982–998. https://doi.org/10.1111/papt.12491
Paulik, G., Maloney, G., Arntz, A., Bachrach, N., Koppeschaar, A., & McEvoy, P. (2021). Delivering Imagery Rescripting Via Telehealth: Clinical Concerns, Benefits, and Recommendations. Current Psychiatry Reports, 23(5):24. Http://doi.org/10.1007/s11920-021-01238-8
Paulik, G., Newman-Taylor, K., Steel, C., Arntz, A. (2020). Managing dissociation in imagery rescripting for voice hearers with trauma: Lessons from a case series. Cognitive and Behavioral Practice. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cbpra.2020.06.009
Paulik, G., Steel, C., & Arntz, A. (2019). Imagery rescripting for the treatment of trauma in voice hearers: A case series. Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapy, 1-7. Http://doi.org/10.1017/S1352465819000237
in this episode Wendy Behary, Rob Brockman and Chris Hayes provide a schema therapy Q&A session (this is part of our online training The Schema Therapy Solution: www.schematherapysolution.com)
In this episode, we reflect on our fresh learnings of 2024. Looking at novel mode dialogue angles, voice hearing and Schema Therapy, tweaks to empathic confrontation, and somatic resourcing options in schema therapy
In this episode we are joined with Alyssa Garret, Clinical Psychologist from Perth, Australia. We discuss how schema therapists can be more neurodiversity affirming in their practice.
https://www.ndhaven.com.au
Stand Attuned NeuroDiversity Affirming Model - https://learn.standattuned.au
In this episode we speak with Dr Julia Andre, a Clinical Psychologist based in Bali Indonesia. We discussed intensive intensive approaches in using Schema Therapy in treating childhood trauma.
In this episode we discuss with Dr Susan Simpson the concept of pseudo vulnerability. Ever had clients present tearful and vulnerable but something didn’t feel right? Then this episode is for you- could it be a pseudo vulnerable coping mode?
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2023.1200981/full
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
In this shorter “punchy” podcast Rob and Chris look at ways therapists can proactively look to improve client connection with others
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.763670/full
In this episode, Rob and Chris look at experiential techniques and discuss ways to get more confident in working with Imagery and Chairwork in Schema Therapy
In this episode we speak with Dr Andrew Phipps about his specific interest - the happy child mode! What is it? why do we need it? How we as therapist can help clients and ourselves enter the “Play State”
Powered by Squarespace.
